Spitfire fuel tank fire in 4.5

[BR Lobo]

I think the Übungsmunition needs to be revisited. If you look at the historical use of that ammunition it was used as a training round. German recruits would get loaded up with that and sent up after a dummy glider that would be towed by a bomber typically. The round self detonates at 500m. As long as the pilot wasn't in range of the tow aircraft they could happily shoot at the glider without fear of hitting the trainers.

That round was a training round! It definitely shouldn't be blowing 20mm holes in the wings like mine shells. That ammo is broken.

That said I too think that the German MG ammo is lacking immensely. I've hammered planes countless times in an E-1, and seen no damage on the enemy. From those pics of the modelled pipes I really hope that helps the MGs become more effective, because honestly it feels like the rounds are passing straight through without ever hitting a damn thing. That's the reason why so many load the broken Übungsmunition, so that they can have some effectiveness with the MGs.

Also, can I see the information about the SmK and the SmK Hart because, I have largely heard that it is just a copy of each other. I heard that since the ammo was so rare TF took it out of the game, but like the E-3 cannon ammo it was left as a placeholder in the loadout screen.

The MG ammo is seriously lacking. Weather it's because the ammo is wrong, or because the damage models aren't complete I am not sure, but I do know that when you hammer something with 150 rounds it shouldn't be as healthy as before.

Watch Spirit's video on it. You can see him fire a four second burst into the wing of a spit, and literally like one or two things are damaged in the damage log. It's honestly a huge issue, and immersion killer.

The same issue is present when using AP cannon shells. Spirit hits 40 or so shells on a Spit with almost ZERO damage until a lucky one hits the engine. Something seriously needs to be looked at with how the German ammo interacts with the damage models. It definitely feels like we are not doing the damage we ought to be the vast majority of the time.

Link to Spirit's video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4GpARkTjtY&t=1087s

This tests need to be made against AI aircraft or in MP in a more controled way.

Sometimes I heard people talking in chat about my "intact" Spitfire and I'm trying to land only using trim tabs...

[StG77_CountZero]

I think the Übungsmunition needs to be revisited. If you look at the historical use of that ammunition it was used as a training round. German recruits would get loaded up with that and sent up after a dummy glider that would be towed by a bomber typically. The round self detonates at 500m. As long as the pilot wasn't in range of the tow aircraft they could happily shoot at the glider without fear of hitting the trainers.

That round was a training round! It definitely shouldn't be blowing 20mm holes in the wings like mine shells. That ammo is broken.

That said I too think that the German MG ammo is lacking immensely. I've hammered planes countless times in an E-1, and seen no damage on the enemy. From those pics of the modelled pipes I really hope that helps the MGs become more effective, because honestly it feels like the rounds are passing straight through without ever hitting a damn thing. That's the reason why so many load the broken Übungsmunition, so that they can have some effectiveness with the MGs.

Also, can I see the information about the SmK and the SmK Hart because, I have largely heard that it is just a copy of each other. I heard that since the ammo was so rare TF took it out of the game, but like the E-3 cannon ammo it was left as a placeholder in the loadout screen.

The MG ammo is seriously lacking. Weather it's because the ammo is wrong, or because the damage models aren't complete I am not sure, but I do know that when you hammer something with 150 rounds it shouldn't be as healthy as before.

Watch Spirit's video on it. You can see him fire a four second burst into the wing of a spit, and literally like one or two things are damaged in the damage log. It's honestly a huge issue, and immersion killer.

The same issue is present when using AP cannon shells. Spirit hits 40 or so shells on a Spit with almost ZERO damage until a lucky one hits the engine. Something seriously needs to be looked at with how the German ammo interacts with the damage models. It definitely feels like we are not doing the damage we ought to be the vast majority of the time.

Link to Spirit's video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4GpARkTjtY&t=1087s

That wonder ammo is reported as bug long time, but its not in progress as of last time i check, so that then means its not gona be fixed, so we can tear apart spits in 4.5

Here you go for smk and smk hart from vanila:

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[Mauser7.92x57_S.m.K.]
// Cartridge, 7.92x57, S.m.K. - Spitzgeschoss mit Kern
types               Bullet

Cartridge           Mass 24.0 g
Projectile          Type ArmorPiercing Mass 11.5 g Bore 8.2 mm FormFactor 0.750 MuzzleVelocity 865 ms LifeSpan 2.0 to 6.0 sec
Tracer              Color Black



[Mauser7.92x57_S.m.K.H.]
// Cartridge, 7.92x57, S.m.K.H. - Spitzgeschoss mit Kern, Hart
types               Bullet

BasedOn             Mauser7.92x57_S.m.K.
Projectile          Bore 6.0 mm MuzzleVelocity 868 ms

So its not same, its having better penetration then normal smk, as his bore is smaller and its faster, and its better to use then as rest is same as smk.

And its not placeholder in TF versions also, they would say if they made any changes to it in any of the changelogs they have, and i didnt notice any mention to it. They were not shy in saing and explaining whats changed, i hope that continues for 4.5.

I dont fined any of MG ammo lacking in game, its usealy players wrong perception (like in that case of perfurated airplanes just few posts back) . When i wont to see what ammo is more effective ugenst Hurri and what ugenst Spit i do test with me and rip, one on one, and test ammo where i can tell him or he can tell me what exact damage is done with every hit.
I load only AP ammo for example, and go against him, he can tell me what damage i do to him even do i dont see damage textures on his airplane, a lot of internal systems get damaged, you cant bais your observations on open online dfs where you dont know what exact damage you did to enemy. Damage textures on airplanes work like helth of parts, they dont show exact positions of bullet impacts, they only show damaged texture when certen number of helth of that part is damaged, and its always same damage texture with same bullet wholes at same places on it. So its normal in this games damage system that AP will not change that texture as fast as explosiv type will.

I cant see that video it says its removed.

EDIT:
If you check Spitfire clod picture on this link youll see that there is still planty stuff to hit on it, pst 32:
https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/10 ... /?p=155427

[BR Lobo]

We need arrows like in 46, to see the hits

[Shadepiece]

Thanks for the Vanilla CloD comparison, but I would like to see the the numbers on the TFS version of those ammo types.

I urge you to watch this video. I believe he edited it, and re-uploaded which is why the last link wasn't working, but you'll see what I mean where almost no damage is done with AP when firing into the wings from direct six.

https://youtu.be/5hCDz9PE9Js

He even has the damage log on screen so you can see the exact damages to specific modules as they are caused. It's quiet interesting.

[StG77_CountZero]

I checked first part what is about MG17 ammo, and:

what are you expecting that small AP rounds should do? you see in video that they pass and destroy spits iner parts from his damage screan, hes without guns, without rads oil and watter and you kill pilot its what AP should do.
Youll not see bullet wholes like you see when explosiv rounds hit spit, like i said in previous post game dosent show you bullet holes on airplane textures where bullets hit (any caliber), ask one of your airplane moders in ACG if you dont belive me, and they will tell you that damage texture has pre defined holes on airplane texture and they will show up on airplane when creten amount of damage is done to that part, not when bullets hit that part every time on that part, on any airplane in game its same on 109s when .303 hits them, its same like in il-2 1946.

Everything i see in video is what i also expect that thouse bullets will do in game from my testes. And they are effective from whats shown in video, you just belive they should do visable damage and holes on wings and hull of Spit? that game dosent do, it will do it when you putt more this type of bullets in airplane, but even small number of AP will disable Spit iner parts like shown in video.

You can ask TF if they changed ¸thouse MG17 ammo, and youll see they didnt if they answer you and if youll belive them, they are same as in vanila because i can see they behave same in vanila like they do in Tf4.3, i cant know for sure but what i see tells me they are not changed.

This is how damage and strenght of spitfire parts is in game ( type of part and its strenght and from what is made of):

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[Construction]

CF                  Durability 75   Skin Aluminum
Sponger10           Durability 75   Skin Aluminum
Sponger11           Durability 100  Skin Glass
Hatch0              Durability 100  Skin Glass      Spar SteelGirder    Part Detachable
Hatch2              Durability 100  Skin Glass
Hatch1              Durability 50   Skin Aluminum   Spar SteelGirder
Hatch3              Durability 50   Skin Aluminum
Nose0               Durability 1000 Skin Aluminum
Nose1               Durability 150  Skin Aluminum
Engine0             Durability 200  Skin Steel
Nose2               Durability 100  Skin CastIron
Sponger00           Durability 10   Skin Aluminum   Spar SteelGirder    Part Detachable
Sponger01           Durability 10   Skin Aluminum   Spar SteelGirder    Part Detachable
Sponger02           Durability 10   Skin Aluminum   Spar SteelGirder    Part Detachable
Sponger03           Durability 10   Skin Aluminum   Spar SteelGirder    Part Detachable
Tail0               Durability 200  Skin Aluminum
Tail1               Durability 200  Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam     Part Detachable
Tail2               Durability 200  Skin Aluminum
Keel0               Durability 85   Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam     Part Detachable
Rudder0             Durability 100  Skin Fabric     Spar SteelGirder    Part Detachable
StabilizerL0        Durability 100  Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam     Part Detachable
StabilizerR0        Durability 100  Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam     Part Detachable
ElevatorL0          Durability 125  Skin Fabric     Spar SteelGirder    Part Detachable
ElevatorR0          Durability 125  Skin Fabric     Spar SteelGirder    Part Detachable
UC2                 Durability 555  Skin Steel
Wheel2              Durability 1    Skin Fabric
WingL0              Durability 100  Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam
WingL1              Durability 100  Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam
WingL2              Durability 100  Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam     Part Detachable
WingL3              Durability 100  Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam     Part Detachable
WingL4              Durability 100  Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam
WingL5              Durability 100  Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam
WingL6              Durability 100  Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam
WingL7              Durability 100  Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam     Part Detachable
WingR0              Durability 100  Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam
WingR1              Durability 100  Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam
WingR2              Durability 100  Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam     Part Detachable
WingR3              Durability 100  Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam     Part Detachable
WingR4              Durability 100  Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam
Wingr5              Durability 100  Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam
WingR6              Durability 100  Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam
WingR7              Durability 100  Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam     Part Detachable
AileronL0           Durability 50   Skin Fabric     Spar SteelGirder    Part Detachable
AileronR0           Durability 50   Skin Fabric     Spar SteelGirder    Part Detachable
LandingFlapL0       Durability 50   Skin Aluminum   Spar SteelGirder    Part Detachable
LandingFlapL1       Durability 50   Skin Aluminum   Spar SteelGirder    Part Detachable
LandingFlapR0       Durability 50   Skin Aluminum   Spar SteelGirder    Part Detachable
LandingFlapR1       Durability 50   Skin Aluminum   Spar SteelGirder    Part Detachable
UC0                 Durability 100  Skin Steel      Spar FlangeBeam     Part Detachable
Wheel0              Durability 1    Skin Fabric
UC1                 Durability 100  Skin Steel      Spar FlangeBeam     Part Detachable
Wheel1              Durability 1    Skin Fabric
Sponger04           Durability 1    Skin Steel
Sponger05           Durability 1    Skin Steel
Sponger06           Durability 1    Skin Steel
Sponger12           Durability 1    Skin Glass
Sponger13           Durability 1    Skin Steel

Think about durability values as helth points of that part, when it reaches certen point, damage texture will apear on that part, and explosiv strenght of bulet dictates how big helth point hit it will be.

For comparesment this is from Il-2 1946 for spit 1 damage model of parts, youll see its same proincipal, just clod have added from what is part made, and more parts :

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[Toughness]
  AroneL 50
  AroneR 50
  CF 400
  Engine1 70
  Engine2 70
  Engine3 70
  Engine4 70
  GearL2 150
  GearR2 150
  Keel1 70
  Keel2 70
  Nose 100
  Oil 70
  Rudder1 50
  Rudder2 50
  StabL 70
  StabR 70
  Tail1 100
  Tail2 100
  Turret1B 100
  Turret2B 100
  Turret3B 100
  Turret4B 100
  Turret5B 100
  Turret6B 100
  VatorL 50
  VatorR 50
  WingLIn 100
  WingLMid 90
  WingLOut 50
  WingRIn 100
  WingRMid 90
  WingROut 50
  Flap01 50
  Flap02 50
  Flap03 50
  Flap04 50

[Shadepiece]

As stated here:

TFS will "nerf" Spitfire fuel tank without any bug found to make this more "historical".

I'll post here what was posted there:

Corrections to the Damage Models - Oil, Water and Fuel - Just an insight

Currently we are testing these corrections and additions to the damage models of the aircraft.

The Spitfire fuel tank rarely caught fire before, due in part to some coding errors. We have corrected this but also added the 3mm thick metal plate that surrounded the fuel tank which was also missing in the 3d model hitboxes (for the Ia/IIa). With these additions/corrections, you still shouldn't expect to see tons of Spitfires dropping out of the sky in massive balls of fire.

We also went through every aircraft's (flyable and non-flyable) oil and water systems and added missing elements. This is being tested but looks promising so far. There were a lot of missing elements of the systems for many aircraft. The Hurricane had a complete system, with all hoses, pumps, tanks, and rads having hitboxes. We used this as our game example when making additions to the other aircraft, which were done with aircraft blueprints, pilot manuals, and system schematics/diagrams.

A handful of aircraft had complete systems already, but quite a few needed major additions, including the Spitfire and 109. The list of aircraft that needed corrections/additions are:

Ju-87
Ju-88
He-111
Bf-108
Bf-109E
Bf-110
Do-17
Do-215
Fw-200
Spitfire Mks
Beaufighter
DH82 Tigermoth

Here are examples of the two most popular planes. Objects in blue are existing, objects in red have been added which were missing and now form complete oil/water systems.

Spitfire:
Spitfire.jpg

109:
109.jpg

The edition of these parts and hopefully more is why I think AP isn't nearly as effective as it ought to be. These modules not being modelled is the difference between a bullet passing through a husk of an aircraft when it should instead be hitting vital components inside the aircraft which up until now haven't been modelled.

This is why I feel the AP doesn't do enough damage. I understand why the damage decals aren't produced, and I obviously don't think the holes appear in the exact place that they actually hit. However, clearly there are parts that have been missing. So yes there might be many things that are modelled, but it doesn't help you if bullets are passing through parts that should be but aren't modelled.

This is something I take great interest in because it seems like the Spit can take an incredible beating by the MGs without suffering as much as it should be. Something that doesn't seem to be the same for Hurricanes, which as I understand were fully modelled.

Also, in regards to cannon ammo, I have hit Hurricanes and Spits alike with many shells, and yet they're wings usually stay attached to the aircraft. I think that seems reasonable, and I am not suggesting they are underpowered, but if you happen to hit another 109 with just two or three of the shells the wing will cave off like it was a twig snapping.

My Staffel knows this all too well as we normally go into a dogfight server before campaign to warm up, and we are CONSTANTLY dewinging each other. However, it seems far more rare that it happens against RAF birds.

Since I don't think that the cannons are underpowered, and that they shouldn't be blowing the wings off of everything all the time, I do think that the 109's wing is unreasonably less durable. I understand that the Hispanos were better, but as it is now a Spit pilot with those new shiny Hispanos and good aim could take off the wings of ten 109s in one sortie, and that just doesn't seem correct. I don't think wingless 109s should be falling out of the sky left right and center. Which is definitely what my Staffel sees in those dogfight servers...

[Onebad]

@Shadepiece,
As far as I know TF acknowledged 109s faulty damage model in regard to cannons, and they're revisiting it before equipping any RAF aircraft with 20mm, so all should be fine IIRC,

When it comes to armour piercing ammo I think it's actually over-effective in some cases. It's safe to say that you can consistently disable steering cables with armour piercing only, which for ammo with no shrapnel or HE effect is quite bonkers (when it comes to how often it happens), and it's a case for both LW and RAF guns. What I'd like to see more is AP ammo doing more damage to less-vital parts of the aircraft, but these often aren't modeled, though you can still put holes in fuel tanks and such, which primarly what AP is gonna be damaging when hitting a fighter from dead astern.

Generally speaking, it's pretty hard to get a good grasp on damage output by these early-war guns considering how hard it is to get your hands on some good quality gun camera footage (if someone has something worth-watching please send it my way), but I have a feeling we're quite far from reality right now. I think (yeah, its just my opinion based on different, often biased sources) that MGs deal slightly too much damage, while MGFFs are super inconsistent. Also, its worth noting that CLoD doesn't model wings flying off due to Gs and damage combined, which is the main reason aircraft lost their wings during actual war. Big holes + tight turns at high speeds = wing gone, while in CLoD you can have 5 manhole sized holes in your wing but it will still remain attached no matter what.

Plenty of room for improvement, bring it on TF.

[Shadepiece]

Pretty good and balanced summary there Onebad. I'm glad things are at least moving in a positive direction even if it's not all fixed immediately.

[StG77_CountZero]

The edition of these parts and hopefully more is why I think AP isn't nearly as effective as it ought to be. These modules not being modelled is the difference between a bullet passing through a husk of an aircraft when it should instead be hitting vital components inside the aircraft which up until now haven't been modelled.

This is why I feel the AP doesn't do enough damage. I understand why the damage decals aren't produced, and I obviously don't think the holes appear in the exact place that they actually hit. However, clearly there are parts that have been missing. So yes there might be many things that are modelled, but it doesn't help you if bullets are passing through parts that should be but aren't modelled.

This is something I take great interest in because it seems like the Spit can take an incredible beating by the MGs without suffering as much as it should be. Something that doesn't seem to be the same for Hurricanes, which as I understand were fully modelled.

Also, in regards to cannon ammo, I have hit Hurricanes and Spits alike with many shells, and yet they're wings usually stay attached to the aircraft. I think that seems reasonable, and I am not suggesting they are underpowered, but if you happen to hit another 109 with just two or three of the shells the wing will cave off like it was a twig snapping.

My Staffel knows this all too well as we normally go into a dogfight server before campaign to warm up, and we are CONSTANTLY dewinging each other. However, it seems far more rare that it happens against RAF birds.

Since I don't think that the cannons are underpowered, and that they shouldn't be blowing the wings off of everything all the time, I do think that the 109's wing is unreasonably less durable. I understand that the Hispanos were better, but as it is now a Spit pilot with those new shiny Hispanos and good aim could take off the wings of ten 109s in one sortie, and that just doesn't seem correct. I don't think wingless 109s should be falling out of the sky left right and center. Which is definitely what my Staffel sees in those dogfight servers...

The missing hit boxes on thouse parts they plan to add will add more objects to hit with AP bullets thats true, but you were talking like its only German AP ammo problem, this mising parts effects also British side when they shoot on 109s, and this will be minimal change, as in game now you could on both side damage planty internals to disable airplane Spit Hurri or 109s with only AP, even if you would not see outside damage on skin of airplane.

Regarding braking wings, that happends more offten on 109s from 20mm, i see that also in situations you describe, and i agree with you that there could be something wrong there, but like i said before TFS said they are revising all DM for all airplanes for TF4.5 so maybe they are fixing this now, as this is not ammo problem its airplanes DM problem.

Here is vanila DM of 109s, you see its mutch less durable parts compared to Spits DM from previous post, and more parts detach when fully destroyed or specific part is hit by cannon.
DMs look like OG devs were made them balanced to taking acount what bullets will enemy have to hit them, 109 will be hit by small bullets so make it less strong and Spit by big so make it more strong, thi is how it looks to me when compare both, thats why 109 dont like 20mm :

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[Construction]

CF                  Durability 1    Skin Steel
Hatch0              Durability 16   Skin Glass      Spar SteelGirder    Part Detachable
Hatch1              Durability 9    Skin Glass      Spar SteelGirder    Part Detachable
Hatch2              Durability 9    Skin Glass
Hatch3              Durability 9    Skin Glass
Nose0               Durability 83   Skin Aluminum
Nose1               Durability 83   Skin Aluminum
Nose2               Durability 140  Skin Aluminum
Nose3               Durability 128  Skin Aluminum
Engine0             Durability 123  Skin Aluminum
Sponger23           Durability 999  Skin Steel
Sponger00           Durability 67   Skin Aluminum
Sponger01           Durability 67   Skin Aluminum
Sponger02           Durability 75   Skin Aluminum   Spar SteelGirder    Part Detachable
Sponger03           Durability 75   Skin Aluminum   Spar SteelGirder    Part Detachable
Sponger04           Durability 38   Skin Aluminum   Spar SteelGirder    Part Detachable
Sponger05           Durability 38   Skin Aluminum   Spar SteelGirder    Part Detachable
Tail0               Durability 104  Skin Aluminum
Tail1               Durability 104  Skin Aluminum
Sponger08           Durability 18   Skin Aluminum                       Part Detachable
Tail2               Durability 80   Skin Aluminum                       Part Detachable
Tail3               Durability 80   Skin Aluminum                       Part Detachable
Tail4               Durability 74   Skin Aluminum                       Part Detachable
Tail5               Durability 74   Skin Aluminum                       Part Detachable
Tail6               Durability 50   Skin Aluminum
Tail7               Durability 50   Skin Aluminum
Keel0               Durability 28   Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam     Part Detachable
Keel1               Durability 26   Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam     Part Detachable
Rudder0             Durability 30   Skin Fabric     Spar SteelGirder    Part Detachable
Rudder1             Durability 32   Skin Fabric     Spar SteelGirder    Part Detachable
Sponger13           Durability 1    Skin Steel                          Part Detachable
Sponger14           Durability 1    Skin Steel                          Part Detachable
StabilizerL0        Durability 34   Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam     Part Detachable
StabilizerL1        Durability 26   Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam     Part Detachable
StabilizerR0        Durability 34   Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam     Part Detachable
StabilizerR1        Durability 26   Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam     Part Detachable
Sponger06           Durability 2    Skin Aluminum                       Part Detachable
Sponger07           Durability 2    Skin Aluminum                       Part Detachable
ElevatorL0          Durability 18   Skin Fabric     Spar SteelGirder    Part Detachable
ElevatorL1          Durability 20   Skin Fabric     Spar SteelGirder    Part Detachable
ElevatorR0          Durability 18   Skin Fabric     Spar SteelGirder    Part Detachable
ElevatorR1          Durability 20   Skin Fabric     Spar SteelGirder    Part Detachable
WingL0              Durability 90   Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam     Part Detachable
WingL1              Durability 122  Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam
WingL2              Durability 73   Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam
Sponger09           Durability 26   Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam     Part Detachable
WingL3              Durability 87   Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam     Part Detachable
WingL4              Durability 68   Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam     Part Detachable
Sponger10           Durability 19   Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam     Part Detachable
WingL5              Durability 59   Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam     Part Detachable
WingR0              Durability 90   Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam     Part Detachable
WingR1              Durability 122  Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam
WingR2              Durability 73   Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam
Sponger11           Durability 26   Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam     Part Detachable
WingR3              Durability 87   Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam     Part Detachable
WingR4              Durability 68   Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam     Part Detachable
Sponger12           Durability 19   Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam     Part Detachable
WingR5              Durability 59   Skin Aluminum   Spar FlangeBeam     Part Detachable
Slat0               Durability 33   Skin Aluminum   Spar SteelGirder    Part Detachable
Slat1               Durability 33   Skin Aluminum   Spar SteelGirder    Part Detachable
AileronL0           Durability 21   Skin Fabric     Spar SteelGirder    Part Detachable
AileronL1           Durability 19   Skin Fabric     Spar SteelGirder    Part Detachable
AileronR0           Durability 21   Skin Fabric     Spar SteelGirder    Part Detachable
AileronR1           Durability 19   Skin Fabric     Spar SteelGirder    Part Detachable
LandingFlapL0       Durability 50   Skin Fabric     Spar SteelGirder    Part Detachable
LandingFlapL1       Durability 36   Skin Fabric     Spar SteelGirder    Part Detachable
LandingFlapR0       Durability 50   Skin Fabric     Spar SteelGirder    Part Detachable
LandingFlapR1       Durability 36   Skin Fabric     Spar SteelGirder    Part Detachable
UC0                 Durability 100  Skin Steel                          Part Detachable
Wheel0              Durability 100  Skin Rubber
UC1                 Durability 100  Skin Steel                          Part Detachable
Wheel1              Durability 100  Skin Rubber
UC2                 Durability 100  Skin Steel                          Part Detachable
Wheel2              Durability 100  Skin Rubber

And what is Onebed saying about structural damage is true, BoX games have it and it looks more natural there, CloD dosent have it as it was based on old 1946 game, just upgraded with more parts and more detail in parts types and options.
Its easy for TFS to say they have best DM model of any existing games when Lobo was pointing thouse stuff out before they baned him, when they dont play other games and dont know what other games have better

Just look how they are now suprised that people would think that Beaufighters outside 3D model looks dated, with blocky look of round stuff, if you play only this game and not newer games you dont know where things are advancing, so you dont se that. I for one dont care if they have to make round stuff to look more blocky to save on FPS and poly count as im used to play in 1946 where that was normal, but new players will se that imidiatly and belive its older game, as its easyest to critiq on look of games.

[Dickie]

Regarding the control cabling, this is a big thing I would like fixed. The Hurricane loses control cable EASILY but considering that they were actually rather slack, double wires, rodded in the wings (not all cable) and independent, then even on the rare chance of one getting pinged then the aircraft was still fully controllable, and if you lost one aileron you wouldn't lose both, in fact the Hurricane was very flyable in roll using only 1. Why do I know this? Because we had a restoration Hurricane builder and pilot in our Teamspeak a couple of years ago telling us this was the case.

I raised a bug, it's still missing a little evidence though, I couldn't find all the bits I wanted but hoping to get more from Hurricane501.co.uk soon.

http://tfbt.nuvturais.de/issues/708

Please upvote, and here's more.
http://www.aircombatgroup.co.uk/forum/v ... f=5&t=2057