Steel Division Normandy '44/Wargame WW2

[Spectre]

Hey guys, just wanted to give people a heads up of the "New Wargame" which is Steel Division Normandy 44.

If you are an active fan of the Wargame series or have heard of this I can say with some level of confidence this is the BEST iteration I have played of the Wargame format. Its in the "Beta Phase" which means you only have limited content if you buy it now but if you're a fan of the series it wont bother you too much. It has US Armoured, British Infantry, and two German Decks, one the SS and the other I can't really say for sure what it is.

It has a heavy emphasis on Infantry this time around, which is extremely satisfying for those who may have been a little disappointed with the effectiveness of Infantry in the previous games, and some of the more annoying aspects of Wargame have been remedied like AAA Spamming and Tank rushes as it has a new system for deploying and earning points.

The game is separated into "A" "B" and "C" phases so you build your deck accordingly as the later phases have better equipment at a higher cost, so it limits how many vehicles can be spawned right off the start and enhances the importance of early infantry vs infantry combat.

Lastly the new point system got rid of the command posts and replaced it with a frontline, to capture more you have to have control of the area with your troops and they get "Stars" for being more experienced which will trump less experienced units, and certain units have a base higher experience and a buff to lower experienced units so you have to properly organise your army so you are spread out enough to hold the line but have enough experience to not be pushed back.

All in all I think its a great buy for those who are fans of RTS's and may want a grander version of Company of Heroes with a bit more grittiness.

LINK TO STEAM: http://steamcommunity.com/app/572410/#scrollTop=0

[Atreides]

Sounds good. Thanks for the review. I am very interested in this game. Have seen some in ACG have already bought it, so there will be ample opportunity within ACG for multiplayer games. Will be waiting till full release myself though with deciding if I'll buy it or not.

[Spectre]

Will be waiting till full release myself though with deciding if I'll buy it or not.

I definitely understand that mentality, its definitely missing a huge chunk and it has only two maps which are extremely different and fun, but its still only two.

[Redeye]

I did not know that this was open beta. I watched some youtube vids and I am pretty hyped for it. I have been watching all the "wargames" from the sidelines, because frankly, it just looks a bit overwhelming, but this might tip me over. Thanks for the write up!

[Azref]

Having purchased and played Steel Division and all the Wargame series I can say that they play rather differently. Wargame is more about digging in and holding a control zone, whereas Steel Division has a dynamic frontline that changes throughout the match.

In Wargame all units are available at match start, not so in Steel Division which plays in 3 phases. Each phase unlocks different units for your current army deck and can heavily influence the game if you make a large push early on. A good example is the American Armour deck, these are rather average until the 3rd phase when they get some truly deadly tanks to counter the German Heavy armour.

So far i'm enjoying it, but if you're unsure watch some gameplay. Whist it uses some of the same mechanics as Wargame such as deck building your armies, it also has some rather large differences that I feel make the game more fluid and fun.

[IronJockel]

So far i followed the steams and watched different vids and comments about this game.
I liked to above mentioned changes on the game. But it still looks like a dumbed down Wargame.
Tactical variation and so on seems rather week. although party true that this is because WW2 didn't had as many different weapon systems it's also didn't saw much possibility's of flanking manoeuvres because the front line would give that away. So surprise attacks from to the enemy unknown Positions is only possible with recon units, as they don't affect the front line. It seems that the only way to counter a heavier tanks is by getting a bigger gun. They should have added some sort of neutral / contested zone and the front lines only chance if you have that area clearly covered.

BTW
Red Dragon had over the time of 3 years 4 (?) DLC that added to the already over 1300 units like 200 units. and i think around 15 - 20 maps (correct me if i'm wrong)
Normandy has until now 4 maps and like 600 units.
With paradox having their fingers on this i am expecting a DLC rain:
An other Panzer division that has a slightly different setup of tanks? 15 bucks please!

For now i'm not convinced and am still hoping that graviteam gets their shit together and adds a mp mode to Mius front.

[Spectre]

But it still looks like a dumbed down Wargame.

I have to argue the frontline actually challenges players in a way the others never did, instead of being able to weasel your way into someones rear with the use of helicopters and whatever else, you actually have to use fire and move tactics to keep units supressed and push around to close with and destroy enemy infantry. Flak/AT guns are fantastic as they're easily destroyable by infantry so using tanks only without infantry support is suicide, and heavy MG's like the Vickers and MG42 will mow down infantry in seconds so without some sort of armour or fire support you'll get nowhere. It puts a heavy emphasis on frontline combat, which it should if its about the hedgerows of Normandy.

I have played quite a bit and the amount of players that still use Russian Red Dragon tactics is refreshing, they try and rush early to get the points flowing and are shocked by well emplaced MG crossfires and 6 Pounders awaiting every main route. Crush their early advance, use the infantry to move up and keep some early tanks as mobile gun platforms. Its nice to be able to use real military tactics aside from Zurg rushing without a care for logistics and manpower. I have found that being able to push units deep within territory is not an issue in Steel Division, if anything its actually a hugely underestimated tactic. Standard units can't be cut off and surrounded as they will surrender, but airborne troops are immune to that, so having them be shock troopers or rear guard and pushing them up after focusing one part of the line is a great way to tie down units, and its not OP like in Red Dragon because you can't just helicopter them wherever they actually have to walk there. The frontline will not always hug the location of your units, if you have completely decimated the enemy the Frontline will actually be pushed back way past your units and will absorb the enemy's influence even if they have troops there as your dominance over the area is exerted, so you can still do surprise attacks.

I liked Wargame because it was on the same scale as the total wars, but I hated the abuse the game got from people using Mi24/Tunguska spams claiming it "Historically Accurate" without considering that it wasn't actually fun. The amount of times my Leopard 2A5's would bounce off a Tunguska only to become "Scared" by it and lock up while hundreds of Recon, Attack and Transport Mi24's all of which are armed to the gitch would leave me furious. Even having Anti-air wouldn't do much as the Russians could use Mig-29's to render them useless before they could even retaliate, being like Mach Over 9000. That combined with the utter uselessness of Infantry outside of buildings really made it a lackluster experience, it wasn't about who could come up with the best tactics it was who could outspam the other. Having to hold key points on the map made it easy to avoid fighting and just scale points by moving command vehicles around the enemies rear and tie up useful assets looking for rearguard insurrectionists, which I would argue further degrades a game about two superpower armies clashing with state of the art technology.

[IronJockel]

https://youtu.be/Siy7CEB_8b0?t=434

here you have an example of a rush with phase A mech and armored units right at the beginning that wins the match in 17 minutes^^
The youtuber is german but you see for yourself what is happening. I've set the timer at the beginning of the rush.

I never experience your issue with Mi24/Tunguska. I'm not playing it for that long so i may missed something.
What is the problem with sneaking in stuff using helicopters? Isn't that what elite commando units are being trained for?

And about infantry.
tbh i don't see that much of a difference of infantry gameplay in this game to the previous titles. Its just overall slower and they have shorter range- but its still the simple concept: soft targets are king of forests and houses, elite unit is better but you can't spam it, and there is also spam infantry that serves as cannon fodder while support units can pick their targets.

[Spectre]

https://youtu.be/Siy7CEB_8b0?t=434

here you have an example of a rush with phase A mech and armored units right at the beginning that wins the match in 17 minutes^^
The youtuber is german but you see for yourself what is happening. I've set the timer at the beginning of the rush.

I never experience your issue with Mi24/Tunguska. I'm not playing it for that long so i may missed something.
What is the problem with sneaking in stuff using helicopters? Isn't that what elite commando units are being trained for?

And about infantry.
tbh i don't see that much of a difference of infantry gameplay in this game to the previous titles. Its just overall slower and they have shorter range- but its still the simple concept: soft targets are king of forests and houses, elite unit is better but you can't spam it, and there is also spam infantry that serves as cannon fodder while support units can pick their targets.

In order;

1) The player is really bad, he clearly dispersed his troops on the flanks way too much and you can see he drives very early tier tanks into a group of mounted infantry and decimates them, and gets no resistance in the form of AT. He went down one of four MSR's and was unopposed. Watch and you see the left flank is extremely fortified by the Germans but he didnt do a whole lot of reinforcing anywhere else. I have played Germans a few times and I can say they have the advantage early game with their Pak and Flak guns, as theyre the ones who can use AT and AA emplacements as Anti Infantry & Anti Tank too. He just didn't cover all the main routes and suffered for it. Once the front got smaller you can see how it stagnated, he was no longer able to take advantage of the poor troop placement and was stopped short of completely flanking. He just didnt take into account the main routes early game, and he didnt get any AT to cover the more open parts of the map vs rushing the urban facility full force.

2) I would invite you to play with a friend of mine, his deck utilises all the Mi24's possible by having all his Recon, Attack Helicopters and Air Assault infantry use them and then any Tunguskas he can fit. Playing against him is essentially this

If you couldn't tell its a little ridiculous. My issue with Helo insertions is that if you can overload your deck with helicopters that are both Attack helicopters AND troop transports, you can effectively decide the match without really doing anything other than deploying all your forces before you Heli rush and send in all the infantry in a Stalingrad like rush and crush the remaining infantry. Its happened so much to me that my only Ranked win is doing the exact same thing to prove a point.

3) The amount of infantry necessity is key to why that tank Rush you pointed out worked, you need to deploy lots of infantry and anti-tank infantry quickly to avoid that. The pace for infantry is slower to allow for some actual tactics to take place, you cant just move them in the open anymore and have them survive hundreds of .50 cal rounds any more. You really need to rely on combined arms to balance your frontline and be effectively offensive without leaving yourself over exposed. The video you referenced only highlighted how troop placement needs to focus highly defensive and cover the entire front or highly offensive at the start, he chose to occupy one area over the others and paid the price for it. What good is a shield if it only covers half the length of your body? All the Infantry units are weak if they're in the open, but having any of them in hedgerows or buildings give them a better use in defensive tactics, however buildings are easily destroyed and are easily surrounded. Hedgerows offer low visibility but are harder to take fire from numerous directions.

Frankly I think that people who are not very good are posting their reviews and are complaining people of equal skill are constantly beating them by using silly tactics which are only slightly better then their own. I have had a Firefly from a German Panzer division rush me one game and it took me by surprise, but now that I know they can get one in Phase A I always have AT guns and AT infantry for every three rifle platoons. Which are nowhere near cannon fodder as you need as much as you can get.

[Hannibal]

a heli rush as shown in the video doesn't work anymore because they patched it out (you can't call in transport helos that cheap anymore). also this tactic was never a huge problem, i have encountered it only a couple of times before they patched it and never again after the patch. i played about 350 matches of red dragon so far, so this is representable.

TL;DR version below:

first off: i've only played wargame red dragon, didn't touch steel division, but i played red dragon quite extensively and still do. and i also followed steel division by watching paradox streams and youtubers (who also played wargame before, so they also know what they're talking about and how the mechanics work).

from what i can tell:
-steel division is way slower
-SD has fewer units on the field
-SD is less micromanagement because of reduced unit number and slower gameplay
-SD has less unit diversity (and probably will have in terms of numbers and purpose, even considering there are only 4 divisions out yet)
-SD will not reach wargames tactical diversity (in red dragon you have about 10 nations/coalitions which are somewhat viable for playing at least 3 different deck types each, SD will have 14 divisions with a preset focus on units, which will roughly be equal to one specialised deck in wargame. for those who did now play either of the games: wargame has at least 30 viable decks, SD has 14 + likely upcoming DLC divisons). also SD lacks many units like helicopters, some airplanes, multiple types of infantry, tanks etc. on top of that, design decisions will hamper diversity (for example the only viable way to shoot down enemy aircraft is by sending in your own aircraft, AA is not designed to shoot down aircraft on purpose).
-on the plus side, they might be able to balance the divisions better than the nation/coalition system in wargame. assuming they don't sell too many divisions as DLCs.
-SD is divided into 3 phases. progressing through the phases will unlock new units to buy. the purpose of this is to enhance asymmetry of the divisions (that is, certain divisions only gain access to their strong units later in the game and will have lower income at the beginning). on the other hand it again reduces tactical diversity and might cause problems regarding the balancing of games which do not have the 40 minutes of game time which the game is designed for.
-SD has a frontline mechanic while wargame uses designated capturable zones. i'm not a friend of this mechanic. it does not make an awful lot of sense, because holding some random field will give you the same advantage as holding a town next to an important road. also the frontline will tell you where the enemies are even if you are completely clueless, because you can guess the enemies position by the course of the frontline. sneaking units around the enemy lines will be almost impossible, as the game is not designed for this -> less tactical diversity. in wargame some zones are important to spawn in new units, taking over a zone will change the game drastically. in SD this will not be the case as spawn zones are fixed.
-maps in SD are designed smaller, broader and less deep than in wargame. this serves no real gameplay purpose. the only purpose i can imagine is that units are so slow they would never arrive if they had to go a long way, so they decided to keep the maps narrow. they sold it as an actual achievement for gameplay but it really is not. it impedes the number of ways you can play a map and therefore your deck. because you will more likely end up in a stretched out frontline,
-SD has a stress level mechanic, which means stressing a unit out and making it flee will be more important than dealing actual damage like in wargame. not a bad thing, not good either. just different.
-SD has less predictable damage outcome. they removed health bars. in wargame you basically rolled the dice for accuracy, and if you score a hit the damage is calculated on a formula which will give back the dealt damage. in SD you roll the dice to see if you hit the target, then you roll again to see if you do damage or not. there are no health bars, so either you do critical damage or you don't do damage at all. this is more authentic, but winning a tankfight is luck based.
-SD has a better interface which will give you more useful information, also they reduced the amount of information you need per unit and per deck. and you won't have to learn each single of the f***n 1500 units of wargame.
-SD has removed some useless "features" like fuel.



TL;DR:

my prediction:
SD will be the more casual little brother of wargame. easier to learn and use, bigger playerbase (because its newer and now has a big publisher) with a peak after release. but without proper support it will be fading rather quickly, because of its design flaws and lacking deepness for hardcore players. buy if you plan to play 100 matches or less and don't want or don't have the time for learning wargame (which will take about 50 hours to learn it properly).
wargame will still have it's niche with a regular small player base (like it does today). it will lose some players to SD but not too much i think. play this if you want deep tactical gameplay, but you will have to invest time.

last notes:
the publisher is paradox, so expect a DLC storm. and i read somewhere that eugen systems planned this as a franchise, so expect this game to die as soon as the newer one comes out like it did with wargame. the develepment cycle for wargame was 1 year.