MODERN CONFLICT Feedback thread-November

Insurgency and borderless global conflict

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Redeye
Posts: 1487
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:50 pm
Location: Haugesund, Norway

MODERN CONFLICT Feedback thread-November

Post by Redeye » Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:33 am

Hey guys!

I would appriciate your inputs on a couple of things here- so that I can try to organize of MC flights to be as enjoyable as possible:)

The last few times we have been plagued by technical delays. Both times we were lucky and were finally able to take off, but it took the better part of an hour. Lesson learned though:)

I would really like the active pilots inputs on a few points.

1. Dead is dead?
I felt that last time was a bit of a dissapointment for you guys as you waited a lot, finally got up and then tore eachother apart in seconds. I wanted as system that make people not waste their virtual lives, but above all it needs to be FUN. What are your thoughts? Should people remain dead, or should we run it like yesterday where one would have to wait for each owns flight return/death? Do people just wanna respawn and fly/have fun?

2. PVP
After we have introduced pvp, we have had great adversaries in the Flankers. Good guys and good pilots. Excellent stuff. However, after opening the COOP campaign to PVP, we have also opened up the possibility/reality of the infamous slugfest. Meet in the middle. Fox 3. Everyone is dead. Mission over. Immersive? Not quite I feel. In ww2 this works a lot better. In a radar missile environment it is a bit different. Quicker. Deadlier. What are your thoughts? Are we better served with COOP against AI, or is PVP the name of the game? What works best for YOU?


3. Tech.
Not having a dedicated host leads us to spending the first half hour deciding who can and will host. Hopefully, EDGE will improve things, but we might all be dead by the time it is released. I feel abit like I am throwing a party without a venue here...


4. Anything else...
you would like to see more of/less of/implement?
What would be cool for you in these sessions?

I will continue trying to org these events for some 4-5 mission until the campaign is "finished".
After that we'll see what happens:)

Thanks to everyone who have taken the time to join in and fly with us this far, and to everyone willing to share input in this thread:)

Boyezee
Posts: 3650
Joined: Sun May 04, 2014 8:56 pm
Location: Northamptonshire, England

Re: MODERN CONFLICT Feedback thread-November

Post by Boyezee » Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:50 am

Hi Redeye

I enjoyed the earlier missions we ran against AI more than the current set up, in the PVP environment we just seem to go head on and shoot at each other and I think it lacks the finesse that we had in the earlier AI missions.

That isn't to say that it isn't fun to go head to head with other humans but perhaps we should have a 'dogfight' night sometimes when we can just go hell for leather at each other without any concerns for a bigger objective, this could be a laugh and casual fun saving the immersion for the proper missions.

I left early last night because due to frustration on my part at my lack of tactical modern jet knowledge, I felt that I led myself and Sokka into a stupid position, in future I would rather not lead a flight, there is a lot I need to learn about modern combat before I start leading.
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Redeye
Posts: 1487
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:50 pm
Location: Haugesund, Norway

Re: MODERN CONFLICT Feedback thread-November

Post by Redeye » Tue Nov 25, 2014 11:14 am

Thanks for the input Boyezee! Exactly the kind of honest input I need. More please!

And btw Boyezee: We all got blown to bits;) We are all learners and each and everyone of us, Flankers included got blown up. You did just as well as anyone:)

The rest of your points are valid and helpful though:)

Zero
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2014 2:02 am
Location: Warsaw, Poland

Re: MODERN CONFLICT Feedback thread-November

Post by Zero » Tue Nov 25, 2014 2:11 pm

Flanker squadron enjoyed last mission, we made our mighty president happy!


I'm no expert on this but both sides had CAP mission, and both sides had AWACS. AI in COOP is maybe stupid and don't see those enemy dots on HUD and get shot, but we saw it and Intercepted it as our mighty president ordered us. You can't just disobey orders and run away, it's a total war scenario, you or me. And I got shot down because I am a new pilot, we had an upper edge there but I made some wrong decisions there and get shot down. Second thing was that Flanker is weaker in BVR combat so we would naturally want to close the distance to intercept you. Use your advantages.

I understand the point and frustration, but mission was designed that way and that outcome was predictable.

In my case it's not like I want a PvP missions. It's just that I prefer flying Su-27.

I don't know if you had put most difficult AI in that mission but as far as I know hardest AI is quite hard and aggressive. So it would be also a short mission.

Second thing is that both sides were quite even in firepower and logistics. Normally that kind of thing wont happen as combats are planned to be uneven, it's not sport it's war. And if the situation is tricky there would be some brainstorm and tactics not just head on and let the best one win.

Su-27 are guests here so I would understand if we would be heavily underpowered side, and it would add a flavor of something unpredictable.

Other case would be pure PvE missions for F15's made by Redeye. There are many new players so it's understandable that PvP is not a good way to start.

I would make some Su-27 missions for us with F15 slots and see how it will turn.

I had a good time my comrades!
Cheers for the mighty president who is definitely not gay!
Lets sing a song!


Redeye
Posts: 1487
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:50 pm
Location: Haugesund, Norway

Re: MODERN CONFLICT Feedback thread-November

Post by Redeye » Tue Nov 25, 2014 2:51 pm

Well made post. Good stuff. Keep in mind that you and Schmuck did a great job, followed orders, flew well and showed great initiative. No criticism towards you commies. We talking mission orging and what people think is fun:) Keep posting guys:)

Sokka
Posts: 398
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2014 3:34 pm

Re: MODERN CONFLICT Feedback thread-November

Post by Sokka » Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:06 pm

I agree that in order for PvP to be very interesting, it takes a degree of familiarity with the systems and the tactics, something I lack at this point, but would like to learn by doing. None the less I had a nice flight as it has been a rare treat to fly the F-15 online, and nothing really substitutes a human opponent. That said, I'll try to join in next time too, whatever the concept. Thanks again for the host and the mission maker!
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Schmuck
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Location: King of Prussia, Pennsylvania

Re: MODERN CONFLICT Feedback thread-November

Post by Schmuck » Tue Nov 25, 2014 4:39 pm

In my eyes I feel the F-15 Lads are a bit trigger happy. I'm unaware of the Objectives you have set and correct me if I'm wrong but I feel that instead of going right for us you should complete the main Objective and worry about the fighters later. The only objective we had was to fly from waypoint to waypoint, and we were engaged before we even made it to the first. It just seems that you have a shoot first ask questions later policy which I can get but I don't see how it can be enjoyable for both sides. Possibly put objectives for both sides I'm okay with flying point to point but I feel you should have an objective, possibly something we can defend instead of taking off, climbing, shot down repeat.

Another thing, Zero may have said this already and I'm sorry if that's the case for repetition sake but I feel our Airfields are too close. Zero made the point that we Flankers don't have enough distance to actually flank. We can't put our battle tactics to good use if we spawn so close out. Just a few things I have on my mind now, all in all the missions are fantastic a great time, mainly because I performed a fairly good attack on two enemy aircraft that I will put onto YouTube here soon!
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Sokka
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Re: MODERN CONFLICT Feedback thread-November

Post by Sokka » Tue Nov 25, 2014 4:49 pm

Just to clarify from Pontiac flights perspective, we were navigating as per waypoints as well when we had you on our nose, maneuvering towards us. Also we (I) never fired before Pontiac 1 was shot down, by then we were face-to-face at less than 17 miles, in less than 60 seconds we would have merged head on. I don't think thats trigger happy at all. At least thats how it looked like from our perspective.
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Boyezee
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Location: Northamptonshire, England

Re: MODERN CONFLICT Feedback thread-November

Post by Boyezee » Tue Nov 25, 2014 5:07 pm

Sokka wrote:Just to clarify from Pontiac flights perspective, we were navigating as per waypoints as well when we had you on our nose, maneuvering towards us. Also we (I) never fired before Pontiac 1 was shot down, by then we were face-to-face at less than 17 miles, in less than 60 seconds we would have merged head on. I don't think thats trigger happy at all. At least thats how it looked like from our perspective.
You beat me to it Sokka, very well put

We saw you guys, started tracking you and then boom, I was hit, didn't even make it to our 2nd waypoint IIRC, Sokka fired his missiles after I had been shot down
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Zero
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Location: Warsaw, Poland

Re: MODERN CONFLICT Feedback thread-November

Post by Zero » Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:36 pm

F-15 were targeting 2 Russian AI that were contrailing. Me and Shmuck were at lower non contrail altitude for lesser detection. While F-15 were heading at Ruskie AI we were flanking you and I shot down Boyzee. We used those Kamikaze Ruskie as a decoy and F-15 took the bait. You did well managing to shot me and Shmuck down.

The point is that you must know your systems, but even more you must know enemy systems.

- Su-27 in most cases can only take on 1 target at a time, while F-15 can take more. So your decision to split was for our advantage. We want you to split so we can kill you one by one. We don't want to attack a pack if we are outnumbered because we have no chance to make it out alive. Su-27 target needs to be locked on from the start to the end as our rockets (Radar guided) are semi-active. To do so F-15 must be in head of us all the time and our evasive maneuvers are limited. Most of F-15 missiles are F&F (Fire and Forget).

- Su-27 have poor nav systems for battlefield info orientation. We have only clear data for one target. F-15 have detailed info for multiple targets.

- F-15 is superior in BVR combat. So why close in? F-15 tactic is to shoot those AIM-120 and keep their distance. While Su-27 "Flanker" needs to close it's range while flanking. Because Su-27 needs to force F-15 in evasive maneuvers first at all cost. Why? Because when we shoot we must keep nose at your direction, you don't. So in a scenario when Su-27 and F-15 fired missiles at the same time F-15 can evade while his missile is still on target. If Su-27 do their evasive maneuvers our missile has lost it's target.

There is even more details to share but there is more to it.

Battle starts not with first "Fox" announcement. In that mission battle started as soon as we saw F-15 on radar, so 1 minute after takeoff. Preparations are part of battle.

In that mission Ruskie was a defender, US was an attacker.

Russian Defender can't retreat or he will die as an deserter (do I have to explain how Russia works?). Ruskie can't retreat because if enemy is attacking their base/home/etc there will be no place to retreat. Defenders objective is to defend no matter what... so defender will be more aggressive and desperate in their actions.

Attacker on the other side is more elastic in his approach. He can retreat, he is initiator so he has the upper edge. He is one that is giving out cards.

Other thing is that US has better technology, Germany had better technology. History showed us that country with lower tech military uses human sacrifice as an tactical asset in order to win. Now days Russia still uses it.

So outcome of that mission was obvious in my eyes.

And don't get me wrong you guys did splendid, but if we want a different outcome we need different mission type.

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