Great video about Me109 E4 :)

[Dickie]

No problem. Basically it's that his claims are astronomical and don't get close to matching RAF records. Johnnie Johnson (leading RAF ace of the war) studied it after the war because he was dumbfounded, he had access to all the records then, he couldn't match up most of the claims. Think about it, you are a maverick pilot disliked by superiors and sent to the desert, you hate the place. I know, let's go out with my wingman only, alone together, and claim everything we can. With such a vast desert and fast moving front they can never check anyway, and we'll get loads of medals and trips back to Berlin to live the high life with girls and drinking, away from the front - Germany needs heroes.

I'm not talking about mistakes in claiming, I'm talking about lies. This isn't the eastern front where inferior aircraft and pilots are knocked down like flies, we are talking about the western front - the pilots and machines were good. One kill on the western front is worth 4 Russians. I happen to think Marseille was a fraudster, and of course he was in a small minority, almost unique in this way.

[Stig]

No problem. Basically it's that his claims are astronomical and don't get close to matching RAF records. Johnnie Johnson (leading RAF ace of the war) studied it after the war because he was dumbfounded, he had access to all the records then, he couldn't match up most of the claims. Think about it, you are a maverick pilot disliked by superiors and sent to the desert, you hate the place. I know, let's go out with my wingman only, alone together, and claim everything we can. With such a vast desert and fast moving front they can never check anyway, and we'll get loads of medals and trips back to Berlin to live the high life with girls and drinking, away from the front - Germany needs heroes.

I'm not talking about mistakes in claiming, I'm talking about lies. This isn't the eastern front where inferior aircraft and pilots are knocked down like flies, we are talking about the western front - the pilots and machines were good. One kill on the western front is worth 4 Russians. I happen to think Marseille was a fraudster, and of course he was in a small minority, almost unique in this way.

Overclaiming was part and parcel of the airwar, on all sides. Anyway, Johnnie Johson might not have missed something:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthrea ... 059&page=6

[Dickie]

There's overclaiming and then there is lying. There's a good motive for doing it too, as described. People can suck it up all they want, I smell a rat.

[Stig]

There's overclaiming and then there is lying. There's a good motive for doing it too, as described. People can suck it up all they want, I smell a rat.

From the linked thread:

So JJ wrote but he forgot that there were also SAAF losses, he had counted only the losses of the RAF units, IIRC in later editions JJ admitted his error.

[Dickie]

Sounds like he wanted to back out of an argument. Even if you account for the SAAF it won't make up for the rest. We are talking about a man who claimed to have destroyed 17 aircraft in one day, and there is that account where he claimed to have shot down about 5 but when they checked his weapon belts he'd only fired about 15 rounds. I don't doubt the bloke could fly, I doubt that he's so exceptional that he can do this kind of stuff and the records show that. Meanwhile, after being ostracised, he's getting his trip in to swanky Berlin hotels and all the girls his tongue could handle. Don't blame him one bit.

[Stig]

You've lost me there, Osprey. What engagement was it that he claimed about 5 but only used 15 rounds? (I have seen statements that he averaged 15 rds per victim, though).
He was ostracized?

However, that he overclaimed is beyond doubt, but that's nothing out of the ordinary, overclaiming was so commonplace that it should be considered the norm, imo. No one knows how many Marseille got, though there seems to be some consensus among historians and authors of around 100 being verified. On the 17 claimed on 1. september 1942,
it seems he may actually have got 12, but one can understand if it's not easy to be conclusive, when it's uncertain how many the RAF and Commonwealth air forces lost (20+ though).

Anyway, for me the issue is not the overclaiming, it's the bit about him being a fraud and a liar I'm missing. I can't find anyone else accusing Marseille of deliberately falsifying claims.