TFS Leadership Slagging (split from Tobruk Update)

[Mauf]

"I hope you will all join me in fighting for Larry as hard as we've fought against bullying."
which is like stuff all lol
you all gang up against buzzsaw, who admittedly probably could hav dun his public relations n a better manner, but then constantly lambast him and then say you fight against bullying? wow i don't think i've ever seen a more hypocritical outlook in my whole life
you also constantly bash atag, whos largest crime is to perhaps provide a server which consistently gets higher numbers of the general public than yours. what you offer is good but bashing others for their servers isn't going to endear yourself to other simmers and hsnt done so for me, as a long time flier who came to clod from xplane and slighty prefers it to dcs and box although i fly all those sims happily. and yes this account is under an assumed name as you might hve guesed.
maybe its time you guys stopped calling atag and co an echo chamber and looked at this from an outsiders perspective, because despite your 'open forum' there is a very predominant anti-TF sentiment among the few members who put their profanity laced 'opinions' out there. my bet is that the majority of guys here are staying silent and not saying something different to what their 'glorious leader' believes just because theyll be ripped apart publicly. in that way the moderation of other forums is perhaps superior to yours in which people are actually civil to eachother.
I hope youll excuse me for my little rant but i think an outsiders perspectibe would do you some good. S all

The stuff that passes as humour in ACG can be grating (and it has become decidedly more low blowing over the years) and I can understand people like Larry making their decisions. But I would take that potty humour over the censorship regime that ATAG runs any day. Flipside of a coin I guess.

As to people here kow-towing to the higher ups: Trust me, even people like Dickie got their comeuppance when it was due and he took them well. That's why ACG worked well so far, because ACG leadership does not hide behind bans and filter bubbles. Dickie can be critiqued for many things (as any normal person, nobody is perfect) but being a censoring dictator is not one of them.

[SOW Reddog]

@aperson. I am not part of ACG and I don't speak for them. If you truly believe that the gulf between ATAG and LITERALLY every other community out there is caused by jealousy, then I think you're either extremely naive or do not know enough about the back story. Storm of War was so successful precisely because it offered something new. It hasn't run a server since December 2016 and I still see posts referencing it on IL2 forums on a weekly basis. I was quite happy with the numbers of players we attracted and the environment we provided while we did so.

Variety is the key to maintaining a vibrant and engaged community. We have lost AX dogfight, 401 server, SoW in recent years. ACG will be leaving. Very rarely do we see ATAG members outside their server. Everyone else is seen experiencing what others have to offer.

And I agree, Buzzsaw could have handled things better. You've come here and told us we are hypocrites. I assume you will be posting on ATAG and or IL2 to tell him how appalled you are at His behaviour too??? Thought not.

[Von Archie]

Of course, he's a decent debater

A mass debater in fact.

[Azref]

1st I'd like to welcome aperson to these forums, it's a shame that you have decided to hide behind an assumed name.

By doing so it is difficult to actually see where your point of view comes from. It is also obvious that you aren't a fan of ACG.

In my experience of other forums, the type of post that you have made here would normally lead to it being deleted by the forums admin and even a ban.

That doesn't happen here as you seem to know so I hope you enjoy your time here and the freedom offered.

[aperson]

S! all,
now a couple of hours later I realise my initial post was more hostile and unfriendly than I intended - my apologies for that, but it still stands as the 'outsiders' perspective.
@Broadsword, Boyezee, Mauf, Azref, thanks for your answers and welcomes. Did help me gain more of an understanding into this group and your motives for your opinions.

@SoW reddog, perhaps I could be considered naive as I'm new to this community and that was my initial impression but I now appreciate that there are different reasons for the rift that is present. Yes, variety is the key to a good community and I can see that ACG and Sow are burnt out with Cliffs, understanderble for doing a campaign that length of time. A pity to see these groups go thogh nontheless.

I do hope I can be taken seriously here as a newcomer here to say I sincerely hope that all the flights sim groups involved here can put aside their differences, forgive past events and work towards a more positive relationship. Having now gained a slightly wider view I would say that no party here is blameless for the current situation, and all will be at blame if the current state of affairs continues. Current worlld events show that reconciliation can happen and I hope that for you guys it does. Conflict like this sucks

Perhaps I will see you guys in the skies

[Dickie]

You are welcome here anytime aperson, and you don't have to hide.

I don't need to write anything because the fellas here, ACG and not, have summed things up very well.

[EAF79_OD_]

Sorry to say that I am an 'outsider' here too, the only reason I ended up so involved was because I was libelled by Buzzsaw and wanted him to take it down. Nothing against people in ATAG, I know some people who have joined that I have flown with for years. I don't like the mentality, I don't enjoy the server, doesn't meant I want to see it dismantled. I just have little interest in doing the same thing over and over with no attempt at realism, but like others it is the first server I played on in Cliffs.

I don't have an issue with TFS. I have an issue with their leader, but until this last week I didn't even know who he was. I'd read the name Buzzsaw around but I didn't know he was in charge of TFS. I now know and I now understand exactly why people are hostile to him; he's created that persona and that environment. Did I bully him? Fuck no. I would strongly suggest he though it was ok to try and bully me into submission, but as I pointed out to him he really doesn't know me. He made a threat in private. I took it on board let him know I hadn't done what he accused me of and left things...he then decided to stir it up and come to ACG and post statements questioning my integrity and morals, saying I had hacked the ATAG forum and I endorsed such behaviour; not just one post either he did it twice here and once on the IL2 forum. Did I get a smug sense of satisfaction when he had to slink off with his tail between his legs? Yes. Is that a reasonable feeling to get after what he tried to pull? Yes.

I posted on the IL2 forum as, I suppose, an outsider. I no longer play Cliffs. I want to play something along the lines of Storm of War, or more specifically I want to play on Storm of War. So I have moved on to DCS, but I still see the bitching and the whining and the ganging up on others; sometimes even outsiders. Just look at the response to the Crash Laobi's video about Cliffs. That is what brought me back and caused me to post on the IL2 and ATAG forums, because all they had done is drag Cliffs through the mud and make the community look incredibly hostile towards anyone that did not like their game. Lets face the vast majority of gamers are not flight simmers and are likely to not like Cliffs so even if you do like it you're going to be in a minority of gamers.

I wanted to try and address this to try and stop the bullshit, all I got in return was bullshit of the type I was trying to persuade people to stop. The very first post in response to my thread labelled me a hater. I later got a PM off him apologising as he hadn't meant me; I appreciated that. The first PM I got from Buzzsaw was a threat about jail time for something that I had not done. Bit of a contrast there.

I think I am around 20 posts, almost all of them around this damn subject that I half wish I'd never bothered to get involved in. I do have an interest in ACG though as I am playing on the DCS Cold War server. I'm interested in the development of this server and finding out more about it and keeping up to date with things so I'm sure I'll keep coming back even when this has finally blown over...still waiting for a retraction and apology from Buzzsaw though.

The difference between this forum along with SoW as opposed to ATAG is that I'm free to post this. If I posted this post on ATAG I would get banned. You know how I know that? Because it already happened and I was labelled 'another SoW toublemaker'. So, I have no time for ATAG forum as a place to try and discuss something because I know they're not interested, it's their way or the highway. I've had disagreements with Reddog and others about DCS before...I didn't get banned for it I can still talk to him, we just didn't agree on something. I've had one discussion with Buzzsaw and that will not be repeated. Big difference.

[Boyezee]

aperson

[Huff Duff]

I want to add that ACG does not feel like competing with Servers like ATAG, because ACG campaign does offer something completly different in experience. As far as for 6./JG26 and 8./JG6 we enjoy ATAG for random training flying, but in the end we look for the Immersion that only ACG campaign can offer, that's why ach individual fron the 6th and 8th Staffel joined ACG.
I wish more could have in insight into ACG campaigns. But the rule is, we only take unatached people. It is not meant to exclude others like SOW or ATAG. Each pilot of ACG serves were ACG needs him. This is not a cometogether of Staffeln and Squadrons. ACG has formed these units. So you first join ACG and are then asigned to a unit. ACG is a clan, like ATAG or SOW. In Germany we say we say you cannot dance
on two marriages at the same time. Thats the reason why People outside ACG can't atend our campaign.


I also a want to note, the fact ACG is leaving Cliffs as our campaign platform is first and foremost that we are flying the BoB like 5 years now. Our leave is not an act against TFS our anyone elso. When we startet our "Leaning Forward Campaign" exactly 3 years ago it was meant to take us over to take us over to NA theatre, so we hoped...
Just now we complete another BoB tour and there is still no date for North Africa release.

[philstyle]

ACG is a clan, like ATAG or SOW

Just to clarify,. SoW is not a "clan" (like ACG or ATAG are).
It is/was just a server, TS channel and forum run by three people - those three people come from/ are memebrs of different independant squadrons.
SoW is available for all clans / squad etc to make use of if they want to. Nobody plays/ flies under the SoW tags. SoW has no squadrons or any think like that.