TF 4.0 coming soon

[Robo]

Stay tuned guys, 2nd release of the TF patch is coming soon. Except of some great LOD tweaks and new retextured maps, there will be some very interesting FM changes:

Stall modelling changes - the 109 and 110 vicious wing drop stall will be corrected and more in line with historical characteristics, Spitfire will get a bit more challenging stall characteristics, she will now drop the wing when pulled too hard. This does not affect the turn performance, just stall entry and stall recovery.

High speed handling improved (aircraft reacting slower to input)

Roll rate adjusted - especially slow speed roll rate of the Spitfire and the Hurricane vs. the 109

Overheating also adjusted so all aircraft will overheat easier below 3000m and we won't be able to fly full throttle at S/L almost indefinitely. On the other hand, cooling capabilities will be better at higher altitudes.

109 climb has been further refined so it will be more in line with historical performance - basically more power at low alt and less power at higher altitude.

Hurricane RoT is still porked afik.

Anyway, good times ahead

[Black]

Amazing news, I loved the Screenshots of the last Friday update. So the autumn/winter map will allready be released in like 1 month together with the level of detail fix? Holy shit, can't wait

[Royraiden]

Thanks Robo, great stuff!

[Vranac]

Tnx Robo!

[Meaker]

Thanks for the great news Robo,it's a bit of a pity about the Hurricane ROT not being dealt with though.

We Hurricane pilots don't ask for much you know,we ain't got the performance of the two thoroughbred breds ,we certainly have'nt got the armament of the 109's ............but apparantly,historically we did have a superb turn rate ...apparantly hehe.

[Dickie]

Robo, this really is poor news but I won't shoot the messenger.

Could you please take the track Vranac recorded of our turn tests to TF with utmost urgency and appeal to them about this major problem.

http://www26.zippyshare.com/v/6925824/file.html

This is urgent mate, they HAVE to bloody well fix this.

I am sick to death of this piss poor FM in the Hurricane, which TF fucked up (yes they did), and the complete neglect of the majority RAF fighter of France and Britain for this period. It appears from what you've written that the Hurricane roll rate will be reduced, and the stall on the 109 more forgiving, then the Hurricane will have less than no chance. TF have made it a thoroughly terrible aircraft to fight in, I assume they don't even look at it such is their attitude.

If they show no support for the COD Hurricane squadrons then they won't get any back, they can play on their fucking own, I, with ACG, will go lock and stock to BOS. I think I'd have more fun in War Thunder right now.

[Vranac]

I sent him tracks Osprey.But the question is if they have time or will to look into that.

I really wonder how their test metodology looks like. I know that the most part of it is painfully boring with climb and speed tests.
What I doubt is that they have "test" pilots who will try to squeeze max from the plane (I dont count myself into that category).
Robo could but he is very limited in free time.

BoS developers have advantage of having few extraordinary pilots as beta testers.
From what I saw LaGG will be really crappy plane to fly and will have verry litlle chance against 109, probably less than Hurri in CloD
Are you planing to join the dark side Osprey

[Dickie]

I used to fly 190A6 in 46, then flew the 51D for the challenge. I am not a fan of the Russian front tbh but I did fly the Yaks a fair bit on the Spits vs 109 Slovakia map. The trouble was they put in that fucking G6 Tall Tail on that map, no coincidence that the 109 pilots flocked to it over other models. In 46 the Yak-1B vs 109E was a good fight, but I can't vouch for the Russian FM's, lots of theory and best case scenarios in that.

[Meaker]

Curiosity got the better of me tonight,so over at ATAG I asked the question,excuse my angst,but this is an important issue to me,and on a better day maybe I would've worded it a little better,but for those interested here's the reply from Buzzsaw.

Re: Friday Update 2 August 2013
Originally Posted by Plt Off JRB Meaker

All sounds great guys,and I certainly don't want to sound or come across rude,you guys have done us proud so far,but please,just tell me the Hurricane 'rate of turn'has been addressed.

At the moment both the Spit and 109 can turn inside of the Hurricane much quicker,this is not only fundamentally wrong,but is also historically wrong.

To finally get this corrected will make a lot of Hurricane pilots smile

............................................................................................................

With all due respect:

This is a complex issue and the posters facts are not all correct.

We have extensively tested the Hurricane vs the 109, and at sea level, and with similar fuel loads, the Hurri will outturn any 109 without any difficulty. Remember, on the servers, you may be encountering a 109 at low fuel, while flying a Hurricane at a higher fuel load.

However, because of the sim's current altitude limitations, and particularly the 109's difficulty in attaining their true ceiling, the Release 1 Hurricane's climbrate was deliberately lowered to below historical, particularly at higher altitudes. This was to prevent the Hurricane having a higher ceiling than the comparable 109's and better performance up high.

Power = sustained turnrate, and therefore the Hurricane versus the 109's at higher altitudes, will sometimes see the Hurricane being outturned in sustained turn contests in level or climbing turns.

Historically the Hurricane's turn advantage vs the 109's DID degrade at higher altitudes, although likely not as much as seen currently in the sim. The fact is, the Hurricane was not at its best at higher altitudes, any examination of the data and the pilot accounts will tell you that.

For Release 2, I am currently working on a revision of the 109's climb and altitude limitations, and depending on the success of that process, the Hurricane will then be able to have its climbrate improved, thereby improving its sustained turnrate at higher altitudes. This should bring things closer to historical. However, I am not making any guarantees.

As we have said in our Release 1 notes, Flight Models are not perfect, and never will be.

We are working as hard as possible to find solutions to any issues in the game.

Thanks for your patience Buzzsaw

[Robo]

I have already passed the tracks to Buzzsaw via PM, got no reply yet, but I am sure he will come back to me. He's not biased at all, I assure you. What they're doing is basically tweaking the FMs so they're more in line with the historical tests and documents.

I know what the problems are with the Hurricane, I am flying it a lot after all. The changes I mention are all sort of look underneath the hood, none of that has been made public as far I know. Keep it that way please.

I personally had no chance to fly the new versions so I can't really tell. I think it would be best to actually try what they have done before complaining. As far I understand, the stall characteristics have been altered, not the turn rate. I'd say that Hurricane is outturning the Spitfre at the moment at slow speed and for what is called instantaneous turn. It is rather difficult to achieve because of the Hurricane's weird stall characteristics (vicious wing drop) but if you rudder clear, you get great result. In continuous turn, the Spitfire is better and so it should be as it's faster than the Hurricane.

In my experience, I can always outturn the 109 in my trusty Hurricane when I keep my corner speed. The only instance when I could be shot at are - 109 has 10% fuel and I just took off with full tanks. Or the 109 drops on me with E advantage and can turn into me for long enough. The ability to win TnB fights drops a bit with the altitude which is correct imho, but you will never be outturned by a 109 co-alt co-E.

The 109 was having some issue with wing dropping at lower speed which was de to the slats not being deployed correctly in the sim. High speed stall should be still there. The Spitfire is now almost impossible to stall - she was easy to fly, but there was a point where you could not just pull so easily, experienced pilots could ride her on the edge of the buffeting and stall. The elevator was very sensitive which is a good thing - now this will be modelled, that's all.

With Spitfire not turning on a dime and Hurricane stall behaviour adjusted, we might as well have the issue fixed. The 109 could turn really well in good hands, experienced LW pilot could outturn a novice Spitfire pilot in real life, if he wasn't afraid using the slats. Experienced Spitfire pilot would not be afraid to pull till he was on the verge of stall and would win a turn fight against that same good 109 guy just like we do now.

Not sure about BoS, again, I will judge when it arrives. LaGGs were not popular with the pilots for a good reason, but teamwork and good skill is more than a better plane.