TF 4.0 coming soon

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Vranac
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Re: TF 4.0 coming soon

Post by Vranac » Sun Aug 04, 2013 1:27 am

Well, Buzzsaws post was really honest, but I have some doubts.
We have extensively tested the Hurricane vs the 109, and at sea level, and with similar fuel loads, the Hurri will outturn any 109 without any difficulty. Remember, on the servers, you may be encountering a 109 at low fuel, while flying a Hurricane at a higher fuel load.
Hurri can do it but far from easy and only stupid 109 pilot like me will continue to turn ( I usually do 2 or 3 full turns just to check the pilot ))
but then I'll just climb over or extend depending of circumstances ;)

Get back to my point, they just don't have the right pilots to test that.My good friend 102-YU-Pirke one time answered me when I asked
why are you turning with spits and hurries to long, " If I can turn with hurri or spit, turning with 109 won't be a problem " :D
And he is in that category of "test" pilots, he will exploit every possibility that plane have to get advantage over oponent.

And trust me if he comes back to CloD, one week and I can't touch him at all in any plane, few days maybe and its over, no chance :)
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Re: TF 4.0 coming soon

Post by Dickie » Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:04 am

I hope I'm not wasting my time here, Vranac and I have done more than just complain, whereas it seems that hardcore Luftwhiners who contribute feck all to the community seem to be listened to when they complain about their online experiences compared with 1946.
Meaker wrote:Curiosity got the better of me tonight,so over at ATAG I asked the question,excuse my angst,but this is an important issue to me,and on a better day maybe I would've worded it a little better,but for those interested here's the reply from Buzzsaw.

Re: Friday Update 2 August 2013
Originally Posted by Plt Off JRB Meaker

All sounds great guys,and I certainly don't want to sound or come across rude,you guys have done us proud so far,but please,just tell me the Hurricane 'rate of turn'has been addressed.

At the moment both the Spit and 109 can turn inside of the Hurricane much quicker,this is not only fundamentally wrong,but is also historically wrong.

To finally get this corrected will make a lot of Hurricane pilots smile

............................................................................................................

With all due respect:

This is a complex issue and the posters facts are not all correct.

We have extensively tested the Hurricane vs the 109, and at sea level, and with similar fuel loads, the Hurri will outturn any 109 without any difficulty. Remember, on the servers, you may be encountering a 109 at low fuel, while flying a Hurricane at a higher fuel load.

However, because of the sim's current altitude limitations, and particularly the 109's difficulty in attaining their true ceiling, the Release 1 Hurricane's climbrate was deliberately lowered to below historical, particularly at higher altitudes. This was to prevent the Hurricane having a higher ceiling than the comparable 109's and better performance up high.

Power = sustained turnrate, and therefore the Hurricane versus the 109's at higher altitudes, will sometimes see the Hurricane being outturned in sustained turn contests in level or climbing turns.

Historically the Hurricane's turn advantage vs the 109's DID degrade at higher altitudes, although likely not as much as seen currently in the sim. The fact is, the Hurricane was not at its best at higher altitudes, any examination of the data and the pilot accounts will tell you that.

For Release 2, I am currently working on a revision of the 109's climb and altitude limitations, and depending on the success of that process, the Hurricane will then be able to have its climbrate improved, thereby improving its sustained turnrate at higher altitudes. This should bring things closer to historical. However, I am not making any guarantees.

As we have said in our Release 1 notes, Flight Models are not perfect, and never will be.

We are working as hard as possible to find solutions to any issues in the game.

Thanks for your patience Buzzsaw
Robo wrote:I have already passed the tracks to Buzzsaw via PM, got no reply yet, but I am sure he will come back to me. He's not biased at all, I assure you. What they're doing is basically tweaking the FMs so they're more in line with the historical tests and documents.

I know what the problems are with the Hurricane, I am flying it a lot after all. The changes I mention are all sort of look underneath the hood, none of that has been made public as far I know. Keep it that way please.

I personally had no chance to fly the new versions so I can't really tell. I think it would be best to actually try what they have done before complaining. As far I understand, the stall characteristics have been altered, not the turn rate. I'd say that Hurricane is outturning the Spitfre at the moment at slow speed and for what is called instantaneous turn. It is rather difficult to achieve because of the Hurricane's weird stall characteristics (vicious wing drop) but if you rudder clear, you get great result. In continuous turn, the Spitfire is better and so it should be as it's faster than the Hurricane.

In my experience, I can always outturn the 109 in my trusty Hurricane when I keep my corner speed. The only instance when I could be shot at are - 109 has 10% fuel and I just took off with full tanks. Or the 109 drops on me with E advantage and can turn into me for long enough. The ability to win TnB fights drops a bit with the altitude which is correct imho, but you will never be outturned by a 109 co-alt co-E.

The 109 was having some issue with wing dropping at lower speed which was de to the slats not being deployed correctly in the sim. High speed stall should be still there. The Spitfire is now almost impossible to stall - she was easy to fly, but there was a point where you could not just pull so easily, experienced pilots could ride her on the edge of the buffeting and stall. The elevator was very sensitive which is a good thing - now this will be modelled, that's all.

With Spitfire not turning on a dime and Hurricane stall behaviour adjusted, we might as well have the issue fixed. The 109 could turn really well in good hands, experienced LW pilot could outturn a novice Spitfire pilot in real life, if he wasn't afraid using the slats. Experienced Spitfire pilot would not be afraid to pull till he was on the verge of stall and would win a turn fight against that same good 109 guy just like we do now.

Thank you Meaker for sticking out your neck and asking, although one point is that the 109 does not outturn the Hurricane, but it can stay with it in continuous turn. To out turn a 109 you need to keep a higher speed up in the turn and that means a descent, then you run out of ground. Up high it is a terrible turner though, I'm finding that above 15k ft the 109 has little problem.

I find it highly alarming that TF felt that it was a good trade off to penalise the Hurricane to death in order to prevent the Hurricane from climbing above it, that isn't outclimbing it, just getting a higher ceiling!

I'm sorry Robo but I don't buy the 'best corner speed' argument - of course you can do that, I can do that, but it's not relevent because we aren't talking about encounters online we are talking about tests, and in real life the 109 could never out turn the Hurricane at any point. I don't agree with you at all that the Hurricane can out turn the Spitfire at lower speeds either, Vranac and I tested this and the Spitfire wins easily. It is all in the track, the worst part is that Team Fusion know this all along, but their priority appears to be the Spit vs 109.

Here are the REAL tests performed by RAE. It sounds as if TF already know this though:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/ ... i-turn.pdf
Point 4 "Spitfire out-turned the Me ALMOST AS EASILY as the Hurricane"

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/ ... ne-109.pdf

Point 6. This is critical and according to many flight logs was a major method of both escape from 109's and killing them - the steep climbing turn.
If one reads these real RAE test reports, and I encourage the Luftwaffe guys to do so, then you will also find a bit about the high and low speed agility problems which the 109 has. The vicious wing drop that you mention they are removing is a vice of the real aeroplane mate - why are they doing that? The 109 had a tendancy to open a slat on one wing first - this is written in the RAE test reports and LW pilots alike. In this case it is because of these limitations that the Hurricane could make this climbing turn (120mph to the left mentioned in flight logs) and get away. I dare say that even if the turn was corrected in the Hurricane that TF would not implement that control heaviness which is referred to? Pressure from the likes of Little_D from his 'combat experiences of 1946' :shock:. Likewise there are vices in the Hurricane, I am not afraid to post them, I'm a history fan not a 'red pilot'.

http://skiesmag.com/news/articles/16252 ... gend-.html

Wonderful detail from a modern pilot flying a vintage Hurricane - notice that there is little feedback to the pilot and acute attention has to be paid to the airspeed. I find myself often spinning in the Hurricane, fair enough, but the reason it happens is because I am put under such trememdous pressure from 109's willing to stay with me in turns - if the turn was correct I wouldn't get into this position.


Thanks for passing on the tracks Robo, and please apply pressure - this is really important. Remind them that this is the MAJORITY RAF FIGHTER of the era, and was THE ONLY fighter the RAF used in the Battle for France (minus Dynamo). Its destruction is causing more damage to the sim than they realise, lots and lots of people love the Hurricane, fly it, die in it a lot, then walk. We are not complaining about TF4.0, I always planned to raise this about TF3.0 but now TF4.0 is around the corner we have to act fast and need your assistance on that (or get Buzzsaw here please).


Are A2A good enough for source data?
http://a2asimulations.com/forum/viewtop ... 77&t=23909

Hurricane I
Sustained 1,000ft 5,000ft 10,000ft 15,000ft
No Flaps 14.8s 16.4s 18.5s 22.1s
Corner Speed and Radii (at 1,000ft)
Speed: 200mph
Radius: 291feet

Minimum Sustained Turn Speed: 125mph
“ Turn Radius: 436ft

109E4
Sustained 1,000ft 5,000ft 10,000ft 15,000ft
No Flaps 18.0s 19.3s 21.2s
24.1s
Corner Speed and Radii (at 1,000ft)
Speed: 225mph
Radius: 367ft

Minimum Sustained Turn Speed: 120mph
“ Turn Radius: 503ft

Spitfire I
Sustained 1,000ft 5,000ft 10,000ft 15,000ft
No Flaps 14.8s 16.0s 17.8s 20.8s
Corner Speed and Radii (at 1,000ft)
Speed: 215mph
Turn Radius: 342ft

Minimum Sustained Turn Speed: 125mph
“ Turn Radius: 431ft


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Both corner and sustained turning radii are smaller in the Hurricane. TF simply have to look at this - it's not the Bf110, it's not the G.50, this is over 65% of the RAF force.


EDIT. I since read the post and what alarms me is just how little the community seems to care about this, they are too busy getting excited about the prospect of driving a few vehicles about. There are 50 people online FFS! And has everyone now been converted into Spitfire IIa's so do not care?

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Re: TF 4.0 coming soon

Post by Black » Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:32 am

I have a little more outside view on this problem, which might be good or bad, however I flew more Spit and Hurri recently than the 109 and it is true that in my eyes the Hurricane is not even close to matching the performance it should have. I started with the Spitfire, outturned 109s good enough to rob them some energy, then tried the same in the Hurricane. Looking at the historical performance the plane is laughable in the game, no doubt that an ace like Robo will outfly most 109s in it but that needs tons of skill which outshines the plane then, however even a rookie in the hurricane should be able to outturn an ace in the 109. Its true that a high energy 109 can keep up the turnrate for a little while and thats the way it should be, cutting the turn by wasting tons of energy is fine aswell but with co energy the turnperformance of the Hurricane, compared to the 109, is really undermodeled in my opinion!

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Re: TF 4.0 coming soon

Post by Bunny » Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:19 am

Interesting reading. I am no expert in actual flight characteristics for any of the aircraft mentioned, but having clocked up about 800 hours in this sim over the last year, I do feel I know how the Hurricane compares to other aircraft. Pre TF3 patch I am sure I used to try and out-turn 109s on the deck, as often the 109 would flip out and crash if they attempted to stay on my six. Now in a dogfight server where this scenario is all too common, the 109 will invariably stay with me long enough to get bullets into me. My only recourse is, as someone mentioned above, to dive whilst turning to keep my speed up in the turn. Also, in those same servers, if I want to stand a chance against a 109 then I jump into a Spitfire - it's that simple. Absolutely the only way I can survive against 109s in my Hurricane is to climb higher than them well in advance, dive on them when they are vulnerable, make sure I hit them, then climb back up and away. Rinse and repeat. To get caught in a co-alt dog fight is asking for trouble.

Having said all that, I am exceedingly grateful to Team Fusion for the hours they voluntarily put in to try and improve the whole gaming experience of the sim. If they think it prudent to tweak one aircraft, then wait and see how that pans out before tweaking another, then perhaps that's best. Of course it would be ideal if they could trial the changes in advance of the actual release, and get both the 109 and Hurricane up to scratch, but I appreciate that there are workload limitations you can ask of people who do it for free, and corrections one slow step at a time is better than none. Personally I can wait another patch or so, the longer I spend with an aircraft that may be porked, the better I will be once it is corrected :) I have to remember that the 109 is the only real option for a blue fighter, whereas we do have the Hurricane and Spitfire. I know the Hurricane was historically the more numerous aircraft in our period, so I have faith TF will attempt to address the issues eventually. I have to, as I can do nothing else really!

“It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes I-16s.” - Douglas Adams


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Re: TF 4.0 coming soon

Post by Robo » Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:30 am

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree, and I am aware of the problem. I started the discussion a while back and now I sent the tracks from your testing to TF. I wish I had more time to deal with this.

The Hurricane can not be successful vs. a 109 if you use it as Hurricane has been used in reality - as an agile angles fighter. I personally don't rely on the turn rate in combat and I deploy it more like a energy fighter. I am a Hurricane pilot myself and I am totally with you on that.

What I am saying is let's not turn this into regular whining, some Luftwhiners in 1946 have nothing to do with this (although I know exactly what you're talking about;) I assure you Buzzsaw or any of the other FM guys are biased at all (he's RAF at all himself) and I have to appreciate the hard work they're putting into the project. I am sure we get this RoT issue fixed as well. btw none of the fixes I listed above were based on any LW complaints.

What I am also saying is that there are some changes done in FM already and we need to see what they did re: RoT and handling. IMHO 50% of the Hurricane problem is the stall characteristics and wing drops for no reason at all.

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Re: TF 4.0 coming soon

Post by Kristorf » Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:35 am

Let's see what the patch brings and work from that point?
Regards

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Re: TF 4.0 coming soon

Post by Robo » Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:14 pm

Kristorf wrote:Let's see what the patch brings and work from that point?
Exactly. The list of fixes I posted here might make it look like the LW is fixed and the RAF is porked. Objectively though, the changes are good and historical. The high speed handling mentioned might make 109 pilot's head in if it's implemented correctly.

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Re: TF 4.0 coming soon

Post by Baron le Scrope » Sun Aug 04, 2013 3:42 pm

Osprey wrote:Robo, this really is poor news but I won't shoot the messenger.

Could you please take the track Vranac recorded of our turn tests to TF with utmost urgency and appeal to them about this major problem.

http://www26.zippyshare.com/v/6925824/file.html

This is urgent mate, they HAVE to bloody well fix this.

I am sick to death of this piss poor FM in the Hurricane, which TF fucked up (yes they did), and the complete neglect of the majority RAF fighter of France and Britain for this period. It appears from what you've written that the Hurricane roll rate will be reduced, and the stall on the 109 more forgiving, then the Hurricane will have less than no chance. TF have made it a thoroughly terrible aircraft to fight in, I assume they don't even look at it such is their attitude.

If they show no support for the COD Hurricane squadrons then they won't get any back, they can play on their fucking own, I, with ACG, will go lock and stock to BOS. I think I'd have more fun in War Thunder right now.
I for one am totally with you on this subject of the Hurrie of which we have become fond of, if they ignore history for much longer they are going to lose a lot of pilots me included, i do not see the point of setting myself up for target practise . NOT HEALTHY for the sim. My friend who i meet at Breighton airfield at some w/ends actually flew these a/c during the war inc, spits and the early Mustang before the tail mod, and he was most surprised that they could get it sooo wrong, the hurrie could easily out turn all of them and this is from a REAL combat pilot who survived the war not by armchair detectives but real life experiences and situations. The german pilots were told not to get into a turning fight with either the spit or hurrie. If these planes were modeled in r/life as in the sim we would'nt have won the war. I, like many others have had a lot of fun in this sim and we would like it to continue. PLEASE address this problem before it's too late.
This a/c was the backbone of the RAF during the BOB accounting for 80% victories, i thought this sim was about the BOB, well it certainly is'nt
I fully understand you cannot get all of these models spot on but come on, the hurrie's performance is pathetic.
I've had my rant and rave but still don't feel any better.
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Re: TF 4.0 coming soon

Post by Meaker » Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:53 pm

....The guys at TF have done a fantastic job,just think back to all of those horrible gremlins this sim had prior to their first patch being implemented a few months back,these chaps fixed a lot of that crap,so hats off to them,they've done a great job IMO.

I have a lot of friends over at ATAG,so I certainly would'nt want to upset anyone over there,or tread on anyone's feet.

Not being gifted in that department,I personally can only marvel in their expertise,I would'nt have a clue how to,or where to start fixing any of that mess,so I am humbled by their talents.

However,with that superb talent,they,I am sure could fix this fundemental flaw in the good old Hurricane's FM.

I have great confidence in their abilities,it may take them a while,no one's asking them to find a solution yesterday,but please,and this is where my rant is directed if you like,do we really need another map of the Chanel to reflect winter and autumn textures?

This,reading through their set of update goals,is obviously,it would seem ,where a lot of that talent and time is being projected on this latest patch,which IMO is a great pity,I think they are missing the key priority here,but each to their own,...........and after all it's their patch,who am I do tell them what they should do with it,it's not as if I'm paying for it!

I would just like to end with this though,the Hurricane turning radius to that of what I call the 'thourough breds' has been well documented,it's in all of our history books,we've all read about it,it's almost legendary,it certainly not a factor of myth,so why is'nt it being nailed...........if this is after all,a sim to reflect the aircraft flown during the Battle Of Britain.

Ok,that's me done,see you all in the Campaign tonight :)

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Re: TF 4.0 coming soon

Post by Dickie » Sun Aug 04, 2013 5:47 pm

Robo, why can't ACG test it? Or at least as select group of dedicated Hurricane pilots. I for one don't fancy the prospect of waiting for a patch to find out it is still fucked and then having to wait another 8 months.

As you know I work in Software, in QA and project management to be precise, and I can assure TF that fixing problem prior to release is 'cheaper'. Like others have said, I cannot understand the priority tbh - a fanfare for fucking ground vehicles, just so Bliss can revel in it like some sort of fucking hero. The guy is one flopping cock head mate.

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