I hope I'm not wasting my time here, Vranac and I have done more than just complain, whereas it seems that hardcore Luftwhiners who contribute feck all to the community seem to be listened to when they complain about their online experiences compared with 1946.
Meaker wrote:Curiosity got the better of me tonight,so over at ATAG I asked the question,excuse my angst,but this is an important issue to me,and on a better day maybe I would've worded it a little better,but for those interested here's the reply from Buzzsaw.
Re: Friday Update 2 August 2013
Originally Posted by Plt Off JRB Meaker
All sounds great guys,and I certainly don't want to sound or come across rude,you guys have done us proud so far,but please,just tell me the Hurricane 'rate of turn'has been addressed.
At the moment both the Spit and 109 can turn inside of the Hurricane much quicker,this is not only fundamentally wrong,but is also historically wrong.
To finally get this corrected will make a lot of Hurricane pilots smile
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With all due respect:
This is a complex issue and the posters facts are not all correct.
We have extensively tested the Hurricane vs the 109, and at sea level, and with similar fuel loads, the Hurri will outturn any 109 without any difficulty. Remember, on the servers, you may be encountering a 109 at low fuel, while flying a Hurricane at a higher fuel load.
However, because of the sim's current altitude limitations, and particularly the 109's difficulty in attaining their true ceiling, the Release 1 Hurricane's climbrate was deliberately lowered to below historical, particularly at higher altitudes. This was to prevent the Hurricane having a higher ceiling than the comparable 109's and better performance up high.
Power = sustained turnrate, and therefore the Hurricane versus the 109's at higher altitudes, will sometimes see the Hurricane being outturned in sustained turn contests in level or climbing turns.
Historically the Hurricane's turn advantage vs the 109's DID degrade at higher altitudes, although likely not as much as seen currently in the sim. The fact is, the Hurricane was not at its best at higher altitudes, any examination of the data and the pilot accounts will tell you that.
For Release 2, I am currently working on a revision of the 109's climb and altitude limitations, and depending on the success of that process, the Hurricane will then be able to have its climbrate improved, thereby improving its sustained turnrate at higher altitudes. This should bring things closer to historical. However, I am not making any guarantees.
As we have said in our Release 1 notes, Flight Models are not perfect, and never will be.
We are working as hard as possible to find solutions to any issues in the game.
Thanks for your patience Buzzsaw
Robo wrote:I have already passed the tracks to Buzzsaw via PM, got no reply yet, but I am sure he will come back to me. He's not biased at all, I assure you. What they're doing is basically tweaking the FMs so they're more in line with the historical tests and documents.
I know what the problems are with the Hurricane, I am flying it a lot after all. The changes I mention are all sort of look underneath the hood, none of that has been made public as far I know. Keep it that way please.
I personally had no chance to fly the new versions so I can't really tell. I think it would be best to actually try what they have done before complaining. As far I understand, the stall characteristics have been altered, not the turn rate. I'd say that Hurricane is outturning the Spitfre at the moment at slow speed and for what is called instantaneous turn. It is rather difficult to achieve because of the Hurricane's weird stall characteristics (vicious wing drop) but if you rudder clear, you get great result. In continuous turn, the Spitfire is better and so it should be as it's faster than the Hurricane.
In my experience, I can always outturn the 109 in my trusty Hurricane when I keep my corner speed. The only instance when I could be shot at are - 109 has 10% fuel and I just took off with full tanks. Or the 109 drops on me with E advantage and can turn into me for long enough. The ability to win TnB fights drops a bit with the altitude which is correct imho, but you will never be outturned by a 109 co-alt co-E.
The 109 was having some issue with wing dropping at lower speed which was de to the slats not being deployed correctly in the sim. High speed stall should be still there. The Spitfire is now almost impossible to stall - she was easy to fly, but there was a point where you could not just pull so easily, experienced pilots could ride her on the edge of the buffeting and stall. The elevator was very sensitive which is a good thing - now this will be modelled, that's all.
With Spitfire not turning on a dime and Hurricane stall behaviour adjusted, we might as well have the issue fixed. The 109 could turn really well in good hands, experienced LW pilot could outturn a novice Spitfire pilot in real life, if he wasn't afraid using the slats. Experienced Spitfire pilot would not be afraid to pull till he was on the verge of stall and would win a turn fight against that same good 109 guy just like we do now.
Thank you Meaker for sticking out your neck and asking, although one point is that the 109 does not outturn the Hurricane, but it can stay with it in continuous turn. To out turn a 109 you need to keep a higher speed up in the turn and that means a descent, then you run out of ground. Up high it is a terrible turner though, I'm finding that above 15k ft the 109 has little problem.
I find it highly alarming that TF felt that it was a good trade off to penalise the Hurricane to death in order to prevent the Hurricane from climbing above it, that isn't outclimbing it, just getting a higher ceiling!
I'm sorry Robo but I don't buy the 'best corner speed' argument - of course you can do that, I can do that, but it's not relevent because we aren't talking about encounters online we are talking about tests, and in real life the 109 could never out turn the Hurricane at any point. I don't agree with you at all that the Hurricane can out turn the Spitfire at lower speeds either, Vranac and I tested this and the Spitfire wins easily. It is all in the track, the worst part is that Team Fusion know this all along, but their priority appears to be the Spit vs 109.
Here are the REAL tests performed by RAE. It sounds as if TF already know this though:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/ ... i-turn.pdf
Point 4 "Spitfire out-turned the Me ALMOST AS EASILY as the Hurricane"
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/ ... ne-109.pdf
Point 6. This is critical and according to many flight logs was a major method of both escape from 109's and killing them - the steep climbing turn.
If one reads these real RAE test reports, and I encourage the Luftwaffe guys to do so, then you will also find a bit about the high and low speed agility problems which the 109 has. The vicious wing drop that you mention they are removing is a vice of the real aeroplane mate - why are they doing that? The 109 had a tendancy to open a slat on one wing first - this is written in the RAE test reports and LW pilots alike. In this case it is
because of these limitations that the Hurricane could make this climbing turn (120mph to the left mentioned in flight logs) and get away. I dare say that even if the turn was corrected in the Hurricane that TF would not implement that control heaviness which is referred to? Pressure from the likes of Little_D from his 'combat experiences of 1946'
. Likewise there are vices in the Hurricane, I am not afraid to post them, I'm a history fan not a 'red pilot'.
http://skiesmag.com/news/articles/16252 ... gend-.html
Wonderful detail from a modern pilot flying a vintage Hurricane - notice that there is little feedback to the pilot and acute attention has to be paid to the airspeed. I find myself often spinning in the Hurricane, fair enough, but the reason it happens is because I am put under such trememdous pressure from 109's willing to stay with me in turns - if the turn was correct I wouldn't get into this position.
Thanks for passing on the tracks Robo, and please apply pressure - this is really important. Remind them that this is the MAJORITY RAF FIGHTER of the era, and was THE ONLY fighter the RAF used in the Battle for France (minus Dynamo). Its destruction is causing more damage to the sim than they realise, lots and lots of people love the Hurricane, fly it, die in it a lot, then walk. We are not complaining about TF4.0, I always planned to raise this about TF3.0 but now TF4.0 is around the corner we have to act fast and need your assistance on that (or get Buzzsaw here please).
Are A2A good enough for source data?
http://a2asimulations.com/forum/viewtop ... 77&t=23909
Hurricane I
Sustained 1,000ft 5,000ft 10,000ft 15,000ft
No Flaps 14.8s 16.4s 18.5s 22.1s
Corner Speed and Radii (at 1,000ft)
Speed: 200mph
Radius:
291feet
Minimum Sustained Turn Speed: 125mph
“ Turn Radius:
436ft
109E4
Sustained 1,000ft 5,000ft 10,000ft 15,000ft
No Flaps 18.0s 19.3s 21.2s
24.1s
Corner Speed and Radii (at 1,000ft)
Speed: 225mph
Radius:
367ft
Minimum Sustained Turn Speed: 120mph
“ Turn Radius:
503ft
Spitfire I
Sustained 1,000ft 5,000ft 10,000ft 15,000ft
No Flaps 14.8s 16.0s 17.8s 20.8s
Corner Speed and Radii (at 1,000ft)
Speed: 215mph
Turn Radius:
342ft
Minimum Sustained Turn Speed: 125mph
“ Turn Radius:
431ft
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Both corner and sustained turning radii are smaller in the Hurricane. TF simply have to look at this - it's not the Bf110, it's not the G.50, this is over 65% of the RAF force.
EDIT. I since read the post and what alarms me is just how little the community seems to care about this, they are too busy getting excited about the prospect of driving a few vehicles about. There are 50 people online FFS! And has everyone now been converted into Spitfire IIa's so do not care?