K-4 TO's!

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Javelina
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Re: K-4 TO's!

Post by Javelina » Thu Jan 01, 2015 7:14 pm

Casca wrote:I've been taking off without crashing but but they're always ugly.
I think the k4 under modeled - It's alnost as if the air load passing the Rudder is missing until high speed. I use breaks to keep it straight 'tank steering' down the runway. Your thoughts?
As I start my roll, I do give her a fair amount of right rudder. at least 1/2 way in. As she gains speed, and you get rudder authority, I gradually back off on the rudder input. Though at times, it feels like I'm doing a little shuffle on the rudder pedals to keep her straight, (once they have authority).

Make sure your tail wheel is locked! And that you have the nose trim down (to max). Go to 1.35 ATA rather quickly, but keep the right rudder input for the initial roll out.

I read somewhere on DCS, that with the K-4, you gotta keep on top of her. And get out on the control input ahead of things.

Before I fly any MP mission, I've been taking her out for at least 3 or 4 touch and goes. Takes off are now solid, and I'm getting real good with the landings. The last 3 have been smooth as butter. Did I say I love this Module? :D

Keep on top of her, and don't get over confident. I did a couple times, thinking I got this down, and next thing you know, big trouble on the runway. Mount up, and stay on top of things. ;)
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Bubi
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Re: K-4 TO's!

Post by Bubi » Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:06 am

That picture is perfect... and apropos coming from a guy from the Cowboy area of the USA.

I agree with Jav 100% with the alternate view that I use only a trim value of 1 and use a 5-10 degrees of takeoff flaps. Both pitch down and extended flaps will push the nose down, so its like two ways of getting the same nose down forces. Point being is the Messer will buck up if you don't push her nose back down (just like that steer). Too much and you bend the prop, too little and she wing stalls. Too little right rudder and aleron, and that massive engine torques the a/c body counter clockwise to the left. Too much counter cross linkage and she right wing dips to the tarmack.

Yee Haw... ridem bronco!
"Train as you fight, fight as you train"

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Casca
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Re: K-4 TO's!

Post by Casca » Sat Jan 03, 2015 3:50 pm

Trick seems to be - advancing the throttle slowly. Several successful takeoffs. ;) Now if I could only keep my wings on in a high gee turn.

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Re: K-4 TO's!

Post by Bubi » Sat Jan 03, 2015 4:28 pm

Casca,

JAV said to apply power quickly, and I said smoothly. Both will work, but it's about being able to deal with the engine torque and keeping her straight on take off. It's like learning to walk before you run. In the beginning, slower rollout gives you more time to deal with torque and to handle the power and rudder inputs. As you get experienced at that, you can do it faster. The faster you do it, the less time you're ridiing the bronco on the ground. Both methods will get you up, just a trade off of time on the bronco versus how hard she will buck.

Yesterday I just started flying the P51-D Pony. A lot more startup switchology and engine knowledge to get her running and warmed up than the Messer or Focke. The pony also doesn't need as much rudder input and you do not push the stick forward on rollout, not until you're airborne.

As for the 109's glass wings under high Gs, she can take a lot of dive Gs up to 650-700 kph; but it's the RATE at which you apply in a turn or pullout that breaks wings. Apply the G forces smoothly and she's fine. So too with the Pony. Change the pitch and roll axes curves to 10 to 20 and you will not be applying forces as fast or linearily.
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Re: K-4 TO's!

Post by Goat » Sat Jan 03, 2015 7:02 pm

Bubi wrote: As for the 109's glass wings under high Gs, she can take a lot of dive Gs up to 650-700 kph; but it's the RATE at which you apply in a turn or pullout that breaks wings. Apply the G forces smoothly and she's fine. So too with the Pony. Change the pitch and roll axes curves to 10 to 20 and you will not be applying forces as fast or linearily.
I've found this to be absolutely true. Applying the G forces smoothly takes some patience and discipline.

To keep myself disciplined, I am very gentle with the stick when applying a high G turn. Also, something that will help build the patience and discipline these turns take to master is to avoid rolling while in a high G turn until you know the limitations of the aircraft. It's not pretty, but it will keep you alive and in the air.

Almost every time I snapped off a wing it was directly after applying too much aileron while pulling back on the stick.

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Re: K-4 TO's!

Post by Casca » Sun Jan 04, 2015 5:14 am

It's hard for me to believe that the wings came off that easy.

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Re: K-4 TO's!

Post by Robo » Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:48 am

Casca wrote:It's hard for me to believe that the wings came off that easy.
It's surely a bug.

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Re: K-4 TO's!

Post by Bubi » Wed Jan 07, 2015 8:12 am

It is and it's well known. I'm just surprised a fix has taken this long to address. Apparently AFM tweaks are complex and time consuming, and likely down their critical issue list.
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Re: K-4 TO's!

Post by Goat » Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:00 pm

Looks like it is a bug, I've ripped off the wings many times at speeds that were nowhere near that of a high-speed dive and didn't even have the stick back all the way.

Here's an excerpt of page 112 of the manual:

"The structural load limit for the Bf 109 K-4 is roughly wintin +8G and -4G. However no cockpit G-force indication is provided, and light construction combined with large control forces required to pilot the aircraft at higher speeds generally mean that overloading the airframe is unlikely under most conditions.

Undue stress on the airframe is generally only possible when pulling out of a high-speed dive.

Not using full stick deflection during dive pull-out is generally the only precaution needed to avoid overstressing the airframe."

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